Mr. Poe, do you think this was an evolution instead of a collapse? Have you read Strauss and Howe's work, The Fourth Turning? Or because of the early events of drought and earthquake, it could only be a collapse? What about the early Middle Ages? Population decline, counter-urbanization, the collapse of centralized authority, the mass migration of tribes (mainly Germanic peoples), and Christianization, which had begun in late antiquity, continued into the Early Middle Ages. The movement of peoples led to the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire and the rise of new kingdoms.
I think the average, non-prepping American thinks of TEOTWAWKI event as a destructive and violent collapse and failure of civilization. I think we are in the beginning of TEOTWAWKI because this world looks nothing like the one I grew up in. Or became an adult in. But that is just my simple opinion.
The History.com article said it took decades, so I'm thinking that it just kept grinding on, getting worse and worse. Mr. Burja thought that the nail in the coffin was the inability of many, or most, places to get both tin and copper in sufficient quantities to make enough bronze for their civilizations to endure. I picture a skilled workman with his bronze tools, but the metal workers are slowly losing the ability to make more tools. Slowly his tools become useless, but not right away, but the whole city slowly deteriorates as the tools go bad. This is happening everywhere, so you keep getting less tin and copper as a result. (Who fixes the ships?) City states start attacking their neighbors in an effort to stay afloat. This is all triggered by the initial natural disasters.
I know of the fourth turning and have read part of it. It's seen as cultural decay generation to generation after the resolving of the previous crisis. I wonder if we tend to get major wars roughly every 80 years because no one with significant power remembers the previous ones. Our present leaders seem to think our military is invincible. Sometimes I think Heinlein's idea of only veterans being allowed to vote or run for office might be good, but that would be a problem too.
Hmm. I see. If you look at the inability to repair and innovate in the Bronze age might I posit that we are looking at the same thing? We have a generation of people who are largely useless to themselves and society. I guess this is just the inevitable rise and fall of civilizations. We weren't/aren't perfect but we sure had a wonderful thing going for a while there. Or at least the concept of something wonderful. I've always said, everything looks good on paper... communism, socialism, monarchy, dictatorship... until you put people in the mix. They ruin everything. 😄
You bring up voting... I am dealing with my mother who has not paid any attention to current events in over 20 years and yet has voted in every presidential election. Should she be "allowed" to vote? Which of course opens Pandora's box. I've seen several male commenters on various stacks casually comment that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. I mean, I get where they are coming from... I understand why brainwashed, ill-educated people should not be influencing how the rest of the country is run but.... how do you draw that line? What criteria? That quickly turns into a very bad scenario. Where every safeguard gets weaponized.
Thanks for the conversation. Let's hope this doesn't go south so rapidly as to cause a complete failure. But south it goes for sure... no stopping this leviathan.
A few extra thoughts. I think originally, correct me if I'm wrong, the idea was that only property owners should vote, the idea no doubt being that such people would be mostly paying attention. There would be exceptions. If you haven't seen this essay of mine already you might like it. It shows some old attitudes on the selection and preparation of leaders.
Truly inspiring writing on an important and pivotal topic. We are failing because we already failed our children, for at least two generations now. Maybe more. But tough times create strong men. Maybe that is the way it must go.
Bad times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create bad times, bad times create strong men……. You’ve probably heard that.
Mr. Poe, do you think this was an evolution instead of a collapse? Have you read Strauss and Howe's work, The Fourth Turning? Or because of the early events of drought and earthquake, it could only be a collapse? What about the early Middle Ages? Population decline, counter-urbanization, the collapse of centralized authority, the mass migration of tribes (mainly Germanic peoples), and Christianization, which had begun in late antiquity, continued into the Early Middle Ages. The movement of peoples led to the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire and the rise of new kingdoms.
I think the average, non-prepping American thinks of TEOTWAWKI event as a destructive and violent collapse and failure of civilization. I think we are in the beginning of TEOTWAWKI because this world looks nothing like the one I grew up in. Or became an adult in. But that is just my simple opinion.
The History.com article said it took decades, so I'm thinking that it just kept grinding on, getting worse and worse. Mr. Burja thought that the nail in the coffin was the inability of many, or most, places to get both tin and copper in sufficient quantities to make enough bronze for their civilizations to endure. I picture a skilled workman with his bronze tools, but the metal workers are slowly losing the ability to make more tools. Slowly his tools become useless, but not right away, but the whole city slowly deteriorates as the tools go bad. This is happening everywhere, so you keep getting less tin and copper as a result. (Who fixes the ships?) City states start attacking their neighbors in an effort to stay afloat. This is all triggered by the initial natural disasters.
I know of the fourth turning and have read part of it. It's seen as cultural decay generation to generation after the resolving of the previous crisis. I wonder if we tend to get major wars roughly every 80 years because no one with significant power remembers the previous ones. Our present leaders seem to think our military is invincible. Sometimes I think Heinlein's idea of only veterans being allowed to vote or run for office might be good, but that would be a problem too.
Hmm. I see. If you look at the inability to repair and innovate in the Bronze age might I posit that we are looking at the same thing? We have a generation of people who are largely useless to themselves and society. I guess this is just the inevitable rise and fall of civilizations. We weren't/aren't perfect but we sure had a wonderful thing going for a while there. Or at least the concept of something wonderful. I've always said, everything looks good on paper... communism, socialism, monarchy, dictatorship... until you put people in the mix. They ruin everything. 😄
You bring up voting... I am dealing with my mother who has not paid any attention to current events in over 20 years and yet has voted in every presidential election. Should she be "allowed" to vote? Which of course opens Pandora's box. I've seen several male commenters on various stacks casually comment that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. I mean, I get where they are coming from... I understand why brainwashed, ill-educated people should not be influencing how the rest of the country is run but.... how do you draw that line? What criteria? That quickly turns into a very bad scenario. Where every safeguard gets weaponized.
Thanks for the conversation. Let's hope this doesn't go south so rapidly as to cause a complete failure. But south it goes for sure... no stopping this leviathan.
Hello Ms. PB,
A few extra thoughts. I think originally, correct me if I'm wrong, the idea was that only property owners should vote, the idea no doubt being that such people would be mostly paying attention. There would be exceptions. If you haven't seen this essay of mine already you might like it. It shows some old attitudes on the selection and preparation of leaders.
https://drp314.substack.com/p/to-ride-shoot-straight-and-speak
Truly inspiring writing on an important and pivotal topic. We are failing because we already failed our children, for at least two generations now. Maybe more. But tough times create strong men. Maybe that is the way it must go.
Bad times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create bad times, bad times create strong men……. You’ve probably heard that.
Many times, never gets old. Have I mentioned The Fourth Turning to you? It feels like we had discussed that, if not, great book by Strauss and Howe.